某国外论坛关于什么是Computer Science的争论，你怎么看？
链接：http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=262434
看到这番讨论，我最先想到的是，如果这个问题是在csdn提出的，是不是又很多人说***，***之类的话。我看到的是，面对CS，虽然有人消极有人积极，但总是理性的，只是思考与了解的深度的问题。而目前的中国人还有什么梦？美国梦吗？
有人看到了中国和印度码农们对世界的影响；
有人把编程看作是一种基本的技能而不论你读得什么专业；
有人把编程看作一种速食，像KFC；
有人指出了Computer Science与 Programming之间的巨大差别；
…………
朋友们，你怎么看？
讨论：
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Idle09：
Hi! I want do my major in COMPUTER SCIENCE. Can anyone tell me the future in computer science. I want to know if there are good chances of getting job computer programming or in software engineering. Thanks for any help in advance!!!
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Hippo：
Depending on what country you're living in. If its in the United States....forgot about it. Those Programming jobs are now in India and China or in some other God given I don't know of a third world country.
When I started College I initially wanted to go into Computer Science but was persuaded by one of the Computer Science Lecturers to not do it after my 1st year in school because of the lack of jobs available. He told us its best to change while there is still
time. This is coming from a guy that used to work for Lockheed Martin but now he's just going by in life teaching Python and C/C++ Programming in Community College for a living.
There are more Computer Science Graduates than there are jobs available over here. Good luck trying to compete with those guys because for every 1 job available there are 10 Programmers in line waiting for their opportunity for employment.
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Patv：
How about Canada? Same job shortage?
What would you recommend for someone, who until now, was set on Computer Science, and is going into University next year?
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Hippo：
I don't know anything about Canada but here in the U.S. its a different story. Maybe you should consider taking some courses from Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering department that way it'll help you gain more skills for the job. If you are good at Programming you can even take Robotics and Mechatronics courses as well.
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I think of all the sciences, Computer Science has the best starting salary and employment opportunities in your field. There may be a lot of competition, but there are also a lot of jobs.
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RasslinGod：
unemployment
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Idle09：
Thank you guys for your opinions. I know that lots of programming jobs have transfered to India and China but most of those jobs have moved back to USA and Canada. My professor told me that right now, most of the programmers are seniors and they are about to retire in 3-5 years. so if somebody graduating in 5 years, shouldn't be much of a problem. By the way, I am living in USA right now.
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RasslinGod：
how did u know they moved back to the USA and Canada?
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Synbolioint：
Think of this, even if you do less than "minor" in computer science/programming:
If you want a program to help you or others in your company, and if officials in your company do not know how to obtain a suitable software program, and if nobody in the company knows how to create a suitable one for you, then YOUR having programming skill
may be your only source of creating the program - and designing it to do what you want it to do, the way you want it to do. Would you want to ask the company officials to find a consultant to make the program for you? What about the time to find the consultant
and the money that your company would spend for that consultant to write the program?
I say, even if you do not major in computer science, at least develop some strong programming skills so that you can be more productive, and so your company can be more self-reliant.
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Laluser：
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Depending on what country you're living in. If its in the United States....forgot about it. Those Programming jobs are now in India and China or in some other God given I don't know of a third world country... |
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm
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Computer software engineers are one of the occupations projected to grow the fastest and add the most new jobs over the 2006-16 decade. |
Really? Please keep your "opinions" to yourself or at least provide some data to back up your comments
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Synbolioint：
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http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm |
Regarding post #10, hippo was quoting official reports (including apparantly the second quote); not stating his opinion.
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Hippo：
You know the funny thing is...you can borrow thousands of dollars just to study Computer Science and go broke along with it. Instead, you could be like me, chose a real career and actually learn something for a change and whenever I get the itch to Program I grab a book off the shelf for self-study in my off time. And you know what it didn't even cost me a dime by doing that. Programming has been too specialized, even the little 5 yr old's are learning and programming in C/C++ and Java now. In another 10 years or so what are you going to do then when another Language reappears and another after that? You'll have two choices either go back to School again and learn or be phased out of the Industry by the new guys with the knowledge. Say Hello to your new best friend...his name is Mr. Unemployment.
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Defender：
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You know the funny thing is...you can borrow thousands of dollars just to study Computer Science and go broke along with it. Instead, you could be like me, chose a real career and actually learn something for a change and whenever I get the itch to Program I grab a book off the shelf for self-study in my off time. And you know what it didn't even cost me a dime by doing that. Programming has been too specialized, even the little 5 yr old's are learning and programming in C/C++ and Java now. In another 10 years or so what are you going to do then when another Language reappears and another after that? You'll have two choices either go back to School again and learn or be phased out of the Industry by the new guys with the knowledge. Say Hello to your new best friend...his name is Mr. Unemployment. |
This is supposed to be a joke, right? Because apparently your post shows that you have no idea what computer science is about. It isn't just programming. The CS majors in my school are taught just ONE programming language, Java. You could take more (and in fact most of them do so) of such classes, but the point is CS doesn't consist of simply learning the syntax of languages since they are so similar to each other.
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Originally Posted by symbolipoint Regarding post #10, hippo was quoting official reports (including apparantly the second quote); not stating his opinion. |
Really? I'd certainly like to see some of those "official reports" too which show that programming jobs are largely being outsourced and we have growing numbers of unemployed programmers relative to other careers.
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Asdfggfdsa：
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In another 10 years or so what are you going to do then when another Language reappears and another after that? |
Different languages embody different programming paradigms - and someone with programming experience in those different paradigms will have no problem learning a new language which uses such a paradigm.
IOW, learning Lisp is easy if you know Scheme.
Synbolioint：
From Defennder in post #13:
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Originally Posted by symbolipoint
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Hippo would just need to share the source with us if he is willing.
Actually, I myself believe that learning to write programs as a minimum, even at a basic level in any common or convenient language is a good thing. Skills are good.
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Tocomablack：
No body seems to understand what computer science really is. Computer Science is not programming. Computer Science involves complexity, computation and automata theory. Computer Scientist spend a lot of there time with Discrete Proofs. Proving algorithms
mathematical, figuring if something is possible to compute are somethings that computer scientist do.
Yes it's true anybody can get a programming job, look at all those adds for ITT Tech. You don't have to be formally train to program business applications. However, being a software engineer requires you to have a CS degree, because you have to know the limitions
of what you working with and effective manage the project. I never herd of anyone other than a Computer Scientist, or Mathematician program for any critical systems. Because, you would mostly likely be spending more time proving that it works than actually
making it.
sorry for the long post but it just makes me angry that no one ever has respect for CS.
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Defender：
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Originally Posted by Tacomablack No body seems to understand what computer science really is |
You ought to have read the thread more closely before claiming that. It's true that we have a lot of people on these forums who not only have no idea what CS is about, but often claim, without proof, that CS job opportunities (along with Comp Eng and EE) are becoming very scarce relative to other jobs because of outsourcing. The rest of us know better.
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Ben1220：
I don't know how many people need to say this until it starts to sink in... but
Computer Science is not programming
It is so so much more. Computer Science has as much to do with computers as astronomy has to do with telescopes. It is the science of information, and you probably wouldn't even recognise it if you saw it. We're talking Complexity theory, Algorithm analysis,
recursion theory, type theory, graph theory, combinatorial optimisation, operations research, artificial intelligence, graphics, information theory, automata theory, machine learning, data mining... A lot of this overlaps with maths, sort of analogous to mathematical
physics.
Yes... People with JUST a bachelors degree in Computer Science often end up as programmers... But the same thing could be said for people with JUST a bachelors degree in Physics. Go and find out what Computer Science actually is before you attack it.
And if you're not attacking the field of Computer Science, but rather the job outlooks for people with a computer science degree, then fair enough... but provide some evidence, because I hear more good things than bad things about job prospects.
Let me try and emphisise a point that has been brought up several times by people who actually know what they are talking about.
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Twofish-quant：
That's true. It may also be good or bad. I've seen some brilliant computer science Ph.D.'s that couldn't program their way out of a paper bag, and therefore are unlikely to get hired as a programmer. The difference between a programmer and a computer scientist is roughly the difference between a race car driver and an automotive engineer. They are just different skills, and you can be an expert at one and totally incompetent at the other. |
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Absolutely not true. You can outsource some parts of programming. but you usually can't outsource the whole thing for the same reason that you can't outsource plumbers. When something breaks and you need it fixed *NOW* you want a team that you can put in one room to fix the problem. You can also get a physics/math Ph.D. :-) :-) :-) Also the cool thing about C++ is that the language changes on you ..... |
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DynamicJester：
I would say difference between programmer and computer scientist is akin to that between mechanic and theoretical physicist. Software engineers are the automotive engineer equivalent. IT people are the racecar drivers.
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Bownin：
You must know that you don’t need a degree in computer science to get a job in programming. For that, you can earn a degree in computer programming although some programmers do have a computer science degree. Computer science is a much more holistic degree and involves learning the fundamentals of computing. You need to have an aptitude for math as well as logical and analytical ability if you want to succeed in the field of computer science. As far as software engineering positions are concerned, the standard credential is a computer science degree. Although the popular perception is that most software engineering jobs have been outsourced to places like India and China, the U.S. Department of Labor has projected a much faster than average growth for software engineers and computer programmers. If you are interested in this field, check out the degree offered by California College San Diego. The best part about this program is that it can be earned on an accelerated mode in 36 months.
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Misterman：
I am actually taking a BSc in Computer Science when I go to university in September of this year. I started my interest through programming, but as explained above, quite thoroughly I might add, that computer science is not just about programming. That being
said I think going to university to study programming is a really good way of testing your ability, anyone can dabble but to actually know if your code is of good practice and high performance I think it's necessary to seek some professional teaching.
I was also considering doing a Ph.D degree in Computer Science and was wondering if anyone here is undertaking or has a Ph.D in Computer Science? ( I know getting a little ahead of myself, but I'm very interested on what some people researched for their thesis
).
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Xaos：
i would say the only difference was how much patience you have for it. i'd rather daydream like a computer scientist than type out hundreds of lines of code just to see some clever animation for it.
anyway, i know at least one IT informant who says that not all programming jobs are necessarily already taken, but you may have to relocate.
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PhysicsHigh：
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Depending on what country you're living in. If its in the United States....forgot about it. Those Programming jobs are now in India and China or in some other God given I don't know of a third world country. |
In california there is a lot of jobs in the silicon valley. A computer science degree can get you a job at a lot of places.
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Dmatador：
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In another 10 years or so what are you going to do then when another Language reappears and another after that? You'll have two choices either go back to School again and learn or be phased out of the Industry by the new guys with the knowledge. Say Hello to your new best friend...his name is Mr. Unemployment. |
What are you talking about? You don't need to go to college just to learn a programming language. You go to get a good education in math, science, ee, etc... there is much more to a cs degree than programming. Learning a language isn't that much of a challenge after you rigorously learn something like c or c++ in college. I think that in general, people in this thread are confusing programmer with the numerous other jobs one can get with a degree in computer science.
I should have read the second page before posting. Oh well. Couldn't hurt.
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PhysicsHigh：
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What are you talking about? You don't need to go to college just to learn a programming language. You go to get a good education in math, science, ee, etc... there is much more to a cs degree than programming. Learning a language isn't that much of a challenge after you rigorously learn something like c or c++ in college. I think that in general, people in this thread are confusing programmer with the numerous other jobs one can get with a degree in computer science. |
Thank you
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Code1：
Yes, CS includes more than just programming. GE requirements, Math (lots of it!), and the science of computers.....etc...
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Graemeboy：
Computer Science is about a lot more than programming.
- Security
- Ubiquitous Computing
- Search
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The challenge of our time today, in Computer Science at least, is our world’s data, the world’s bytes. The ratio of the world’s data that is available by online search, compared to all of the world’s data, will be one. The deep web, the hidden web, the data that is stored behind forms, that has not been crawled by search engines, will soon be searchable. |
- Artificial Intelligence and Biological Integration
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Cars can drive themselves for hundreds of miles without any human interaction – but there are still tens of thousands of fatal car accidents occurring every year. People spend 1 to 2 hours of their day in traffic – traffic? The nation’s highways are crowded by three times as much traffic as were the predictions for our time. How can we increase the quality of people’s lives by increasing the efficiency of our transport systems? How can we do this using A.I.? |
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Our time is a time of biology – the discipline that had the greatest impact in the last 50 years was computer science, but in the next 50 years it will be biology – and that is precisely because of computer science. Computer readable data is coming through in an ever-increasing amount; from astronomy, biology, neuroscience – in amounts far exceeding the human ability to comprehend and read. Computer science helps by taking this data, storing it, analyzing it, and constructing simulations that can help up interpret the data as knowledge. |
Sources:
http://pythoughts.com/future-of-comp...gy-integration